Rant of the year…

[threehundred]

Just checked and it’s been 7 years since my last post…sorry. I’m tired and angry and need to vent. Proceed with caution:

As Saints fans, England having a chance of success at a major tournament takes on added importance.  We’re not used to winning anything.  I tried hard not to have hope that we would win the Euros, as hope generally only leads to pain, but ultimately (and to my great regret) I got caught up in the moment. Hence the anger and insomnia…

Am I the only person that thinks England made the final of Euro 2020 in spite of Gareth Southgate, not because of him? His team selections and substitutions throughout the tournament were perplexing. In the final, Southgate handed the initiative to Italy with his negative formation and by and picking the anonymous Mason Mount and Bukayo Saka (- a fine prospect, but so callow). Yes, Saka had a couple of good moments in the competition, but generally looked overawed; real rabbit in the headlights stuff. Against Italy he looked like he’d stumbled onto the wrong pitch looking for the youth team game. No way should he have been on the pitch last night, let alone taking the single most important penalty in his nation’s history. Southgate should be held to account for allowing him to step up for a pen. This was asking far too much of a young kid and I hope that Bukayo recovers from the crushing disappointment of his miss. Sancho is brilliant and well ahead of Saka in terms of physical and emotional development and, from what I’ve seen, pure raw talent, yet he’s somehow behind in the pecking order. Baffling!

Bringing on Sancho and Rashford so near to the end of extra time was bizarre and bound to increase the pressure on them. If Southgate thought it was such a good idea, why didn’t he bring on DCL to take a penalty too?

Setting up in a 5-3-2 was just feeble. I’ve no problem changing to a defensive formation to protect a lead, but Southgate set us up to invite waive after wave of attack form the start, then failed to make any proactive substitutions to try to wrest back any kind of control. Possession based football wins games these days and we simply never held on to the ball.

The Italian defence is old and slow - Sancho and Grealish would have had a field day running at them. Instead, Southgate persists with Sterling, who can seemingly never be substituted. Yes, he generally played well, but he’s no Messi! The link up play between Kane (who seems to think he is a baller and should realise his limitations- his job is to put the ball in the net) and Raheem was non existent.

Shame on Sterling, a senior player, for not stepping up to take a penalty. Disgraceful lack of bottle and no wonder he doesn’t feature in Pep’s 1st XI.

Is Mason Mount the most overrated player in the country? What exactly does he offer? Mount is the epitome of the above average pro. I’ve nothing against him because of where he was born (some of my favourite midfielders were born in Pompey - ok, one of them!). Last night he was anonymous, just like he was against Denmark. He initiates the press..? Fine if you don’t spend the entire game camped in your own half. Another Southgate favourite, so untouchable. Mount is the new (thin) fat Frank.

Kane - good finisher. Like Shearer - one paced and no trickery, but knows where the goal is but needs to learn to goal hang. He spent far too much time dropping behind even Kalvin Phillips, looking for the ball. He’s the footballing Graeme Hick; a flat track bully who goes missing in the big games. Certainly not a leader of men either. More Captain Mainwaring than Captain Marvel in the leadership stakes. I only hope that Mason Greenwood delivers on his frightening potential - genuinely two footed and light years above Kane in what he can offer.

Why did Southgate take off Declan Rice? He was the best player on the pitch, with Luke Shaw. Presumably to give Sgt. Hendo, injured since February and as far off the pace as Mo Farah in the Olympic trials, a nice run out to see if he’s suddenly learnt how to run a game?

Kalvin Phillips seems to offer very little. To be honest, I really wanted to dislike him because he took JWP’s place in the squad and with all his backwards passing he reminds me of a Poundstore Butch Wilkins, but he did ok. He can be no more than a stopgap in this team though, until Jude Bellingham is a little older. That kid has it all.

I’m excited by this England squad ( God knows how good Phil Foden will be in a year or two), but Southgate has taken them as far as he can. He’s a decent, principled man, but not a good manager. Mancini, more than his players, changed the game and won the tournament for Italy. Southgate held us back. We have a genuine chance of winning the World Cup with a team of Henderson, TAA, Stones, Maguire, Shaw, Rice, Bellingham, Sancho, Foden, Grealish and Greenwood and a top bench with Kane, Sterling, Gomez, Chilwell, James, Rashford, Saka, JWP etc. but will go nowhere with Southgate at the helm.

I’m sick of the pundits saying what a great competition we’ve had. With the quality on the bench tonight, a half decent manager, with home advantage, would have destroyed Italy. Southgate only managed to break hearts and, quite possibly, Bukayo Saka’s career.

Time to say thanks, Gareth and time to go - just like when Saints waived bye bye to Nigel Adkins (another decent guy with limited managerial ability).

Failure is ingrained in this nation’s psyche. There is nothing heroic in England’s performance, but I fully expect platitudes to rain down on Southgate, Sterling, Kane, Mount et al. Second place is nothing to Germany, Brazil and the top teams. We need a complete change of mindset and, to that end, Southgate should do the honourable thing and admit he’s simply not up to the job, or one of the suits at the FA should wake up and smell the coffee.

But that’s not going to happen though, is it?

Well done chaps, bad luck - hold your heads up high and MBEs all round…

[THE BEAST]

I mostly agree with this, I don't like the sterling bashing that's been going on because generally speaking, he really makes a difference for England. He didn't last might though I completely agree.

Mount, you were extremely eloquent about, I agree with every word.

As for putting 3 kids on for those penalties, to be honest that should be classed as some kind of GBH… I do fear for Sako, the trolls will pick him apart which is unjust and, as you rightly pointed out, all of it is entirely Southgate's doing (which, fair play to him, he has held up his hands and taken responsibility for).

I won't go through your points, a fine ran should be left as such, I just wanted to agree with you basically.

Who the new manager should be though, now that I can't guess… Nor even suggest someone… The team however deserves somebody with a lot more nous as well as Southgate's bland appeal and political savvy.

[saintsfan73]

We've got to the final of a major tournament for the 1st time since '66. Last Euros we got knocked out in the first knock-out phase by Iceland and the last manager before Southgate got us knocked out in the group phase of the WC.

It's a great achievement. Penalties are always a lottery and if Rashford's kick had gone 1 inch to the right I think we would have won it.

There are always some things that can be looked at with hindsight, I hate the idea of bringing on players just for spot kicks as they are not up to the speed of the game and to come from the bench straight into a mega high-pressure shoot out is not a good idea. Also Saka would have been the 11th person on the list for me to take a pen. Having said that we were struggling to find good penalty takers on the pitch. Who could have taken them? Stone, Grealish, Sterling, Shaw? Possibly but none have taken many in the past.

Anyone calling for Southgate to be replaced after getting us to a final is insane. This is international management we are talking about and we are England and not Brazil. It's a job for losers like Uncle Woy and McLaren and mercenaries like Sven and Capello. If the job is vacant Pep and Jurgen won't apply but Jose and Pards will.....

[threehundred]

Thanks, Beast. I’m rapidly running through the 7 stages of grief (I’m sure I’m not alone!) and posting that last night helped in the process!

I’ve no idea who should be England manager, but the last month has crystallised what I’ve felt for a while - it simply can’t be Southgate.

One of my favourite quotes is from Charles Schultz, of “Peanuts” fame - “There is no greater burden than great potential”. I don’t want to see the amazing potential of that squad go to waste

[jickster]

I think that there are a few valid points in there, but I disagree with most of it.
To split it into 2, I think that based on the tournament as a whole, Southgate has been exceptional. Looking at the game last night it's easy to nitpick and I think he made errors, although in his defence the nature of those errors were characteristic of things that had worked well previously and I understand the thinking even if I don't agree with the decisions.

I think that this line With the quality on the bench tonight, a half decent manager, with home advantage, would have destroyed Italy., this is exactly the kind of English arrogance that Southgate has been trying to dispell. Based on the last 55 years of football, what on earth gave you the impression that England are that good? There are some skilful attacking players on the bench, but to destroy Italy we'd have needed to have blended them with Spain's midfield for example. It's repeatedly been the case that England just try to shoehorn in the best attackers (classic example, Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes) and forget the system. Southgate prioritised the system throughout the tournament and that's why less flashy players were picked.

To pick a few specifics where I think you are wrong:
Saka has much more defensive nous than Sancho. He came in for key jobs against Germany to help nullify their obvious strength, ie. the wingbacks which tore into Portugal. Sancho wouldn't have been able to do that. This is an example of where Southgate's boldness sets him ahead of past England managers who would have just picked the more gifted player, but Saka achieved what was set out. Saka also showed attacking skill in the Czech game. It's rubbish to say it will destroy his career, he'll get over it. Loads of players have missed penalties and coped fine long term, even if he'll feel dreadful today.

On penalties in general, I'm certain we were the best prepared team, it just didn't work out, it's such a difficult thing to do. GS and his staff worked so hard in WC18 to get the right approach and it paid off. Did you notice the little things like the way England players always paused for at least 5 seconds after the ref blew the whistle (shown to have a higher success rate than those who rush immediately, eg. Morata)? That Pickford collects the ball and hands it to the next taker so they don't have to run miles to put it on the spot? GS said that Sancho and Rashford were the best in training at penalties- it's a gamble putting them on cold, and it didn't pay off, but there really isn't a magic formula for winning shootouts, see how the ultra reliable Jorginho also missed. If Saka took one ahead of Sterling, it might look odd but there will be a reason for it, not just 'who fancies one lads?' like we used to have.

Mount, yeah, he wasn't very good but he does do a lot of unnoticed things. I agree they were harder to notice yesterday and he was lucky to stay on as long as he did.

I think Phillips is good. Henderson also came on a time where experience was required, he'd quietly done well against Denmark in a similar situation although he didn't have the impact hoped for yesterday.

Kane, we're just going to disagree. A goal hanger was the last thing England needed yesterday. He couldn't influence the game the way he wanted, but the idea of coming deep is the right one.


I think England had some problems yesterday, one of which was possibly scoring too early, but the first half went to plan, whether you like the plan or not. It's bold to pick a team that you think it correct when it won't be popular, but an opening goal featuring 2 right backs, Kane dropping deep and then a left wingback was basically a perfect demonstration of how the system was designed to work from an attacking perspective. Then, having accepted that Italy are better at passing the ball, we did a pretty good job of stopping them from doing much with it, only shots from distance or with crowds of players.

The second half was where it fell apart. It became obvious minutes before the equaliser that one was coming and England needed more options to get out, Saka was the right choice I felt but was brought on 15 minutes too late. Mount, as we've agreed, was also having little impact and should have come off earlier.
England were slightly better in extra time and kept the ball a bit better. But I don't think there's a combination of players available where we dominate possession.

On Southgate as whole, he's been in charge for 4 tournaments (not 2 as everyone keeps saying, the Nations League is a proper thing where teams try their hardest and it's very important that we accept it, this is my hill I will die on!) and he's reached 2 semi finals and 1 final. In my time watching football, we've reached 2 semi finals without GS in charge. It's a remarkable transformation. We have traditionally had a number of mental blocks- losing to Germany in knockout games, losing penalty shoot out, losing semi finals, not beating decent opponents ever, and he's managed to overcome all of those. He's starting to normalise winning in some big games, even if he couldn't win the biggest one. But you've got to be in it to win it, and if we continue to reach finals then eventually we'll win some. I'm not sure who this magical alternative manager is that's out there who would have done better.

I think it's been a brilliant tournament overall, and England have really contributed to it. We've still got limitations, but there are fewer now than there used to be and I hope that Southgate stays and continues to learn (his greatest strength is that he will reflect and change where he thinks necessary, many managers would just get stuck in their ways and repeat mistakes).

Anyway, nice to have a good chat about it here, it's been a bit quiet lately and I like to get into this stuff.

[threehundred]

Jickster - we will have to agree to disagree! I enjoyed your post and you do put together a very coherent argument. I guess I’d rather have lost having known we’d given winning our best shot - playing the attacking football these players are well capable of. We’ll never know what could have been if Southgate had thrown off the shackles.  


Instead it was another night for hiding behind the sofa.

[threehundred]

To pick up on one last thing, jickster:

“I think that this line With the quality on the bench tonight, a half decent manager, with home advantage, would have destroyed Italy., this is exactly the kind of English arrogance that Southgate has been trying to dispell. Based on the last 55 years of football, what on earth gave you the impression that England are that good?”

I’m not basing anything on 55 years. Look at the success of England age group teams over the past 5 years. Foden, Sancho etc. are part of a new breed of players that are used to success. We haven’t achieved previously because we haven’t had the players or a coherent national coaching structure. Thank god that has changed.

I want to see arrogance, but on the pitch… the time for humility in top level sport is after the final whistle, not before.

[spot51]

Thanks for these points. 

Tomorrow I have to distil the pages of notes I took (in the dark mostly) to write a match report for IBO. I've kept objective because I am not the greatest England fan (if no Scummers are involved) and I've always loved the Italian's passion for football. I thought Italy WERE the best side over the whole month and TBF England were clearly the next best.

The worst thing about yesterday were the inadequacies of Wembley stadium to keep people safe - again. On Wednesday Danish fans were required to bring tickets, passports and proof of Covid inoculation. From the reports reaching UEFA and the Danish FA, they checked only tickets and there was no stewarding inside Wembley. Consequently hordes of England "fans" searched for better seats and woe betide any Danes already sat there. The Danes were abused and assaulted, women and children were attacked and spat on.

Last night it seems they couldn't even keep out the ticketless Mongs so even England fans with tickets found these w@nkers sat in their seats. This, not what happened on the pitch. will not read well in the corridors of football power. 2030 World Cup in England? Supposedly a shoe-in: don't count on it...    

[jickster]

Jul 12, 2021 9:22:14 GMT spot51 said:

Thanks for these points. 

Tomorrow I have to distil the pages of notes I took (in the dark mostly) to write a match report for IBO. I've kept objective because I am not the greatest England fan (if no Scummers are involved) and I've always loved the Italian's passion for football. I thought Italy WERE the best side over the whole month and TBF England were clearly the next best.

The worst thing about yesterday were the inadequacies of Wembley stadium to keep people safe - again. On Wednesday Danish fans were required to bring tickets, passports and proof of Covid inoculation. From the reports reaching UEFA and the Danish FA, they checked only tickets and there was no stewarding inside Wembley. Consequently hordes of England "fans" searched for better seats and woe betide any Danes already sat there. The Danes were abused and assaulted, women and children were attacked and spat on.

Last night it seems they couldn't even keep out the ticketless Mongs so even England fans with tickets found these w@nkers sat in their seats. This, not what happened on the pitch. will not read well in the corridors of football power. 2030 World Cup in England? Supposedly a shoe-in: don't count on it...    

God, yes, it was an absolute disgrace wasn't it? We were given so many games at this tournament because we have a record of being well organised for big events. We're supposedly bidding for a World Cup, well let's just save the effort because we won't get one now. 
I said something last week about how I don't have much affinity with many England fans even though I support the team but that was something else. Looking on Twitter, a lot of seasoned journalists were pretty shocked by it all and made me ashamed to be from the same country as them.

[spot51]

Jul 12, 2021 9:32:36 GMT jickster said:

Jul 12, 2021 9:22:14 GMT spot51 said:

Thanks for these points. 

Tomorrow I have to distil the pages of notes I took (in the dark mostly) to write a match report for IBO. I've kept objective because I am not the greatest England fan (if no Scummers are involved) and I've always loved the Italian's passion for football. I thought Italy WERE the best side over the whole month and TBF England were clearly the next best.

The worst thing about yesterday were the inadequacies of Wembley stadium to keep people safe - again. On Wednesday Danish fans were required to bring tickets, passports and proof of Covid inoculation. From the reports reaching UEFA and the Danish FA, they checked only tickets and there was no stewarding inside Wembley. Consequently hordes of England "fans" searched for better seats and woe betide any Danes already sat there. The Danes were abused and assaulted, women and children were attacked and spat on.

Last night it seems they couldn't even keep out the ticketless Mongs so even England fans with tickets found these w@nkers sat in their seats. This, not what happened on the pitch. will not read well in the corridors of football power. 2030 World Cup in England? Supposedly a shoe-in: don't count on it...    

God, yes, it was an absolute disgrace wasn't it? We were given so many games at this tournament because we have a record of being well organised for big events. We're supposedly bidding for a World Cup, well let's just save the effort because we won't get one now. 
I said something last week about how I don't have much affinity with many England fans even though I support the team but that was something else. Looking on Twitter, a lot of seasoned journalists were pretty shocked by it all and made me ashamed to be from the same country as them.

Can't agree more. Also, so sad for Southgate that by trying to give Rashford, Sancho and Saka the chance to become heroes he merely made them targets for the mentally disturbed. 

[jickster]

Jul 12, 2021 9:19:36 GMT threehundred said:

To pick up on one last thing, jickster :

“I think that this line With the quality on the bench tonight, a half decent manager, with home advantage, would have destroyed Italy., this is exactly the kind of English arrogance that Southgate has been trying to dispell. Based on the last 55 years of football, what on earth gave you the impression that England are that good?”

I’m not basing anything on 55 years. Look at the success of England age group teams over the past 5 years. Foden, Sancho etc. are part of a new breed of players that are used to success. We haven’t achieved previously because we haven’t had the players or a coherent national coaching structure. Thank god that has changed.

I want to see arrogance, but on the pitch… the time for humility in top level sport is after the final whistle, not before.

Yes, I know what you mean and the age group teams are showing that we're catching up in many areas. But I think that this takes time to embed, to go from Iceland embarrassment to outplaying Italy is unreasonable in 5 years. The positive is that in another 5 years with Foden and Sancho in mid to late 20s as the senior players, with a new batch of players to join them then we might be able to do that. There are not many guys from this squad who are anywhere near retiring, and we've got a good nucleus to work with for a while. 

I think we're at a stage now where perhaps 3 out of 10 times we would be able to beat Italy. 4 times we'd draw and 3 times we'd lose. So to have effectively drawn yesterday was about par and not worthy of slating. If the evolution continues perhaps we can continue to improve the ratio. All of which comes back to another point I made a while ago, that it's very hard to judge international football, when it all comes down to so few games and we have to evaluate 2 (or 3) years of work on one match. This also reinforces why the Nations League should be included when judging.

[sotonian]

Southgate should have made changes earlier, after half time it was obvious the game was going against us, he didn’t react and it was only a matter of time before Italy equalised. We needed a plan B, he had the players on the bench to do that

[Furry Frank The Combat Wombat]

Jul 12, 2021 11:44:02 GMT sotonian said:

Southgate should have made changes earlier, after half time it was obvious the game was going against us, he didn’t react and it was only a matter of time before Italy equalised. We needed a plan B, he had the players on the bench to do that

Agreed. That and the fact he put on the pointless Henderson, who was unable to make much difference; but hey, he had to play him to justify taking him instead of JWP.