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Post by spot51 on Sept 27, 2022 16:01:03 GMT
Unfortunately radical only appeals to a minority and to win elections you need more than that - e.g. when UKIP looked like they were going to take a minority of Tory votes and scupper their election changes the Tories offered up Brexit to kill of the extremes who'd vote for UKIP purely on that and look where we are today. I'm afraid doing what radicals want gets us into trouble on either Left or Right I just think we need a real change, for the better, a fairer world where everyone has what the need to live a happy and fulfilling life, and no one gets left behind, or hoards riches in off shore accounts. Forget left or right, let's just have fairness. I suspect you are like me and vote for whoever can beat the Tory. BITD that was Steve Ross (Lib) on the IOW and he was a fantastic MP. We have had bloody Tories ever since - mindless lobby fodder for whichever maniac is in charge. Now the best option is Green but until both Labour and Liberals feck off we'll keep getting Tories as most islanders are bloody stupid. Green politics is far more radical than labour but I gave up my membership as our corrupt voting system requires millions of votes to get 1 Green MP while other parties need a few thousand. You'll only get fairness with PR and the 2 big parties are unlikely to deliver that without blood on the streets.
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Post by OneBeat on Sept 27, 2022 16:27:08 GMT
I just think we need a real change, for the better, a fairer world where everyone has what the need to live a happy and fulfilling life, and no one gets left behind, or hoards riches in off shore accounts. Forget left or right, let's just have fairness. I suspect you are like me and vote for whoever can beat the Tory. BITD that was Steve Ross (Lib) on the IOW and he was a fantastic MP. We have had bloody Tories ever since - mindless lobby fodder for whichever maniac is in charge. Now the best option is Green but until both Labour and Liberals feck off we'll keep getting Tories as most islanders are bloody stupid. Green politics is far more radical than labour but I gave up my membership as our corrupt voting system requires millions of votes to get 1 Green MP while other parties need a few thousand. You'll only get fairness with PR and the 2 big parties are unlikely to deliver that without blood on the streets. Invite Green, they are the closest to what I believe, but I live amongst thick Tory voters, so it’s all a bit pointless.
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Post by THE BEAST on Sept 28, 2022 8:36:52 GMT
Those momentum feckers need to grow up and realise if they don't unite in the party they will enable more of this shambles of a government. I think it sums up Corbyn himself, he would rather be fronting an idealistic protest group than actually governing. It's why he was unelectable. They only managed to get Corbyn installed as leader as they realised that the UK population has little interest in Politics and an incredibly small number are actually members of any political party. I can honestly say in my personal/work life I don't think I've ever come across anyone who is a paid up party member of any side. They noticed that if they could get a few thousands hard core Socialists and Marxist students to pay their dues they were able to rig the leader elections. It was like Tesco introducing a membership plan. 99.9% of people would be happy to shop there but not want to pay to become a member but the couple of thousand members then held an election and banned the sale of bread and milk and when people complained they would say it is democracy in action. well, to be fair, what you described is democracy in action… I mean as long as anyone can actually join and vote and change the outcome potentially (along with the other members) then that is what democracy is. Just because you can't be fucked to join something to vote for what you believe in doesn't mean it's undemocratic if somebody else does do that! That's just fecking apathy and, sadly, what most of the people in this country are like. Don't get me wrong, although I liked Jeremy, he had his faults, but he was stabbed in the back by Starmer and his cronies, I mean total fecking "Caesar on the steps" stuff, but that's the past. I am in favour of anybody getting out the Tories except anybody even more hard right that they are. ATM, that appears to be Starmer… so be it… But all this fecking middle-class bleating about joining political parties (or in most people's case open quote NOT joining political parties) because they are completely undemocratic etc is completely missing the point about how democracy works. Actually, if you want my honest opinion, democracy is a fecking disaster but I don't really have an alternative to put forward… It certainly not monarchy!
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Post by threehundred on Sept 28, 2022 8:56:11 GMT
Interesting to see the IMF’s take on our government’s brilliant fiscal plan
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Post by OneBeat on Sept 28, 2022 9:04:59 GMT
I just think we need a real change, for the better, a fairer world where everyone has what the need to live a happy and fulfilling life, and no one gets left behind, or hoards riches in off shore accounts. Forget left or right, let's just have fairness. But in reality that is never going to happen so rather than be idealistic and change nothing it's better to be pragmatic and change something. That makes me very sad, and is why I can't vote for either of the two main parties.
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Post by Sir B3na1i on Sept 28, 2022 9:09:52 GMT
Unfortunately radical only appeals to a minority and to win elections you need more than that - e.g. when UKIP looked like they were going to take a minority of Tory votes and scupper their election changes the Tories offered up Brexit to kill of the extremes who'd vote for UKIP purely on that and look where we are today. I'm afraid doing what radicals want gets us into trouble on either Left or Right I just think we need a real change, for the better, a fairer world where everyone has what the need to live a happy and fulfilling life, and no one gets left behind, or hoards riches in off shore accounts. Forget left or right, let's just have fairness. Ideal world, you're right. Real world unfortunately is full of self interest. You're absolutely right about forget Left or Right though - the most divisive language and we now have actual politicians saying things like 'I know this is a good policy because it's annoying the Left/Right' - REALLY?! Because I thought you were there for all!
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Post by saintsfan73 on Sept 28, 2022 9:11:48 GMT
I think it sums up Corbyn himself, he would rather be fronting an idealistic protest group than actually governing. It's why he was unelectable. They only managed to get Corbyn installed as leader as they realised that the UK population has little interest in Politics and an incredibly small number are actually members of any political party. I can honestly say in my personal/work life I don't think I've ever come across anyone who is a paid up party member of any side. They noticed that if they could get a few thousands hard core Socialists and Marxist students to pay their dues they were able to rig the leader elections. It was like Tesco introducing a membership plan. 99.9% of people would be happy to shop there but not want to pay to become a member but the couple of thousand members then held an election and banned the sale of bread and milk and when people complained they would say it is democracy in action. well, to be fair, what you described is democracy in action… I mean as long as anyone can actually join and vote and change the outcome potentially (along with the other members) then that is what democracy is. Just because you can't be fucked to join something to vote for what you believe in doesn't mean it's undemocratic if somebody else does do that! Sorry, but that is ALOB! That's not democracy, if anything it's Capitalism! The Labour Party should be acting for the interests for the millions who vote for it, not just the thousands who provide their bank details for a monthly direct debit! Maybe we should do the same for General Elections then? People can pay into a Democracy+ scheme where, for the bargain price of £19.99 (+VAT) per month, your vote in any election will count double!
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Post by THE BEAST on Sept 28, 2022 10:50:19 GMT
well, to be fair, what you described is democracy in action… I mean as long as anyone can actually join and vote and change the outcome potentially (along with the other members) then that is what democracy is. Just because you can't be fucked to join something to vote for what you believe in doesn't mean it's undemocratic if somebody else does do that! Sorry, but that is ALOB! That's not democracy, if anything it's Capitalism! The Labour Party should be acting for the interests for the millions who vote for it, not just the thousands who provide their bank details for a monthly direct debit! Maybe we should do the same for General Elections then? People can pay into a Democracy+ scheme where, for the bargain price of £19.99 (+VAT) per month, your vote in any election will count double! no, that's bollocks… if you are unwaged you can still join at an affordable rate and still make a decision. There's no need to pay that much if you can't… And people ARE doing that in general elections, they just buy votes in a different way already don't they? Thick Lizzie (much like others in the past) have been made Prime Minister without ever having been voted for by the public… Don't kid yourself that doing nothing and then publicly complaining about the outcome is a good democratic solution, it's fecking abnegating responsibility and then having the nerve to whinge about it. Now I'm not saying that's what you do, I don't know you so I don't know, but most do. Most have no right to even talk about the decisions being made, if you don't take part then you get what you get, feck off should be what they are told… People who don't do anything to change anything, even if they can't do very much, they are to blame… If people don't like things then they should change things in the ways that are open for them to do so.
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Post by choixkoix on Sept 28, 2022 11:43:07 GMT
What we have now is fundamental stresses in how our version of democracy in the UK functions that frankly are untenable.
It's a two party system and that relies on both parties being broad churches. Though internal strife has always happened, fundamental splits have formed in the last 10-15 years that the earthquake of Brexit has driven wide apart. The Conservative Party has abandoned any centrism it once had. Pro-centrist, liberal conservatives with a small 'c' are the minority disenfranchised in a hard veer right, the UKIP-isation of the party. The Labour Party was immensely successful under Blair but the wounds caused by their shift to the centre and the total disenfranchisement of the socialist wing of the party were never healed. The Labour party's position is more difficult because successive Conservative governments have gerrymandered the constituency boundaries and the rise of the SNP (due to Labour's fault somewhat) has penalised Labour permanently. Starmer can only form a Labour government with Blair style hardcore centrism and a silent socialist wing. (Personally though I'm not sure he will have the strength to actually keep a centrist consensus once in government if they win the next election especially with the state the country is in.)
Political trends in the last 20 years.... the age of politics by social media, the reliance on soundbyte driven policy and focus groups and the tendency for Presidential leadership government rather than Cabinet government... along with other things, not least mass public disenchantment with politics... tells me the way out of this is electoral reform and the abandonment of the broken and excessively adversarial two party system.
It's the keystone issue of our times. The sadness of it is that the Conservatives will easily be able to claim that electoral reform is navel gazing when the country needs policies on social issues. And we are probably still living in the mistaken era of 'pure democracy is only possible through a referendum' and a referendum on electoral reform isn't going to be sexy with this populace. But it's the only way out of this death spiral. The breakup of these two ghastly parties and their internal politics will flow from that. And for me if we already effectively have UKIP in the government as we have at various juncture in the last 5 years, I'd like a system where the Greens get a chance to infiltrate the doors of power too, not least when they say most about the defining issue of the century we live in.
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Post by baconleetravis on Sept 28, 2022 13:28:46 GMT
I just think we need a real change, for the better, a fairer world where everyone has what the need to live a happy and fulfilling life, and no one gets left behind, or hoards riches in off shore accounts. Forget left or right, let's just have fairness. But in reality that is never going to happen so rather than be idealistic and change nothing it's better to be pragmatic and change something. And the reason it's never going to happen is because people sit around with their finger up their arse saying its never going to happen
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Post by Furry Frank The Combat Wombat on Sept 28, 2022 16:29:09 GMT
But in reality that is never going to happen so rather than be idealistic and change nothing it's better to be pragmatic and change something. That makes me very sad, and is why I can't vote for either of the two main parties. That's a fine principle, and I can't find much to recommend either; but right now surely every right-thinking person needs to focus on deposing the current feckers before it's too late.* *arguably it is already too late, but just out of principle they need to be stopped.
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Post by spot51 on Sept 28, 2022 18:24:52 GMT
That makes me very sad, and is why I can't vote for either of the two main parties. That's a fine principle, and I can't find much to recommend either; but right now surely every right-thinking person needs to focus on deposing the current feckers before it's too late.* *arguably it is already too late, but just out of principle they need to be stopped. Either of the earlier King Charles would have sent a few Companies of Guards down to Westminster to shift them at gun point. Just saying...
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Post by spot51 on Sept 28, 2022 18:29:11 GMT
Took less than a month for Boris to be ousted as worst ever PM? Useless twat.
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