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Post by Mandochris on Jan 21, 2019 11:33:38 GMT
I have to say, this rather makes me think of those Trump supporting pundits on CNN, who continue to bang on about "yeah but the economy" as the evidence mounts that the guy is a crook, a traitor and a walking disaster for the USA. The team is playing well, players are improving all over the pitch, "yeah, but a back 4!" a man who never has qualms about diving head-long into any debate, even when he doesn't really understand what is being debated. I think you missed the point. Spectacularly
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Post by saintsfan73 on Jan 21, 2019 11:40:06 GMT
a man who never has qualms about diving head-long into any debate, even when he doesn't really understand what is being debated. I think you missed the point. Spectacularly Exactly what The Donald would reply!
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Post by saintsfan73 on Jan 21, 2019 11:42:19 GMT
I'm not sure we can continue to only have thirty-something % possession against mid-table or worse teams at home and continue to regularly win games. It might be a good strategy of trying to play the big boys on the break but not when we're playing the likes of Palace at home. 4 of our next 5 games are very winnable ones against non Big 6 opponents. I'm not sure why there is a reticence about us buying a new CB. It's almost as if some are looking to take us getting a massive upgrade of manager to justify the signings of the past 3 seasons as not being as bad as the stats suggest. The comments about us having the CBs to play 4 at the back don't seem to be borne out by results on the pitch. Whenever we have tried it is has been a disaster. We did it against a weakened Derby team at their place and conceded two and then tried it at home against them and also conceded two in one half. We need to be able to let RH play his favoured formation. This means we need 4 decent CBs so we can pick the best two. Bednarnek looks like he can develop into a good CB so you would have to say we have one starting CB there but I'm not sure you could play him with JV as the latter seems to need two CBs playing alongside him to make up with his lack of pace. Likewise I can't see any future for Stephens as a PL CB with a team playing 4 at the back as he has zero aerial ability. RH does seem very hot on him as an intelligent footballer so I wouldn't be at all surprised if RH was able to get him playing the role(s) Dier does at Spurs. CB when the team is playing 3 CBs but also as a MF player. If we look at where we need to strengthen, CBs would seem the obvious area, even if for no other reason that we are a man down there as RH has gone on record as saying our £15m man Wes Hoedt has no future at the club. In MF we have lost Davis but added Hesketh, in attack we have lost Gabbiadini but added both Obafemi and Gallagher so I can't see we will be bringing in more players in either of those areas. If we can sell Cedric then a new RB may be an option but, with Valery playing well, it's not exactly a desperate need. I don’t think there is a reticence to buy a new CB. Just a reticence to buy one in January who might not be our top target and will come overpriced. If we get this signing wrong, we’ll have another 15m man sitting in the stands. And there’s more chance of getting it right in the summer. The club needs to learn from Januaries past, where we’ve been forced to buy hurriedly and poorly. I kinda agree with that which is why I think a loan deal for an experienced PL CB would be a fairly low risk and sensible solution. If gives us a fallback for playing a flat back for if the 3 CBs thing starts to miss-fire. If it is an amazing success we can even think about making it permanent in the Summer and if not then all we have lost is 6 months wages.
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Post by Batts on Jan 21, 2019 12:00:25 GMT
I don’t think there is a reticence to buy a new CB. Just a reticence to buy one in January who might not be our top target and will come overpriced. If we get this signing wrong, we’ll have another 15m man sitting in the stands. And there’s more chance of getting it right in the summer. The club needs to learn from Januaries past, where we’ve been forced to buy hurriedly and poorly. I kinda agree with that which is why I think a loan deal for an experienced PL CB would be a fairly low risk and sensible solution. If gives us a fallback for playing a flat back for if the 3 CBs thing starts to miss-fire. If it is an amazing success we can even think about making it permanent in the Summer and if not then all we have lost is 6 months wages. I do think there is some merit in that idea but I also think the club and Good Ralph are on the same page in their desire to always build for the future. Ralph’s track record for improving players is such that they’ll probably think it might be more profitable to see if he can improve Jack Stephens’ weaknesses over the next 6 months rather than give someone like Cahill a last hurrah. Again, they’ll be mindful of the Caceres situation, where this strategy failed. I can see both sides of the story.
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Post by saintsfan73 on Jan 21, 2019 12:15:34 GMT
I kinda agree with that which is why I think a loan deal for an experienced PL CB would be a fairly low risk and sensible solution. If gives us a fallback for playing a flat back for if the 3 CBs thing starts to miss-fire. If it is an amazing success we can even think about making it permanent in the Summer and if not then all we have lost is 6 months wages. I do think there is some merit in that idea but I also think the club and Good Ralph are on the same page in their desire to always build for the future. Ralph’s track record for improving players is such that they’ll probably think it might be more profitable to see if he can improve Jack Stephens’ weaknesses over the next 6 months rather than give someone like Cahill a last hurrah. Again, they’ll be mindful of the Caceres situation, where this strategy failed. I can see both sides of the story. Wouldn't say the Caceres loan failed, more was not needed. He was/is a good player and in the only game he played we kept a clean sheet and won. Hopefully we can win at least 3 of the next 6 games and then our survival will be near to being guaranteed so we can really look to the future. I just think it would be good to give some of this season over to RH in playing the 4-2-2-2 or 4-3-3 formation he likes, if for no other reason than preparation for next season, but I don't think we have the CBs to do this.
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Post by Batts on Jan 21, 2019 12:38:52 GMT
I do think there is some merit in that idea but I also think the club and Good Ralph are on the same page in their desire to always build for the future. Ralph’s track record for improving players is such that they’ll probably think it might be more profitable to see if he can improve Jack Stephens’ weaknesses over the next 6 months rather than give someone like Cahill a last hurrah. Again, they’ll be mindful of the Caceres situation, where this strategy failed. I can see both sides of the story. Wouldn't say the Caceres loan failed, more was not needed. He was/is a good player and in the only game he played we kept a clean sheet and won. Hopefully we can win at least 3 of the next 6 games and then our survival will be near to being guaranteed so we can really look to the future. I just think it would be good to give some of this season over to RH in playing the 4-2-2-2 or 4-3-3 formation he likes, if for no other reason than preparation for next season, but I don't think we have the CBs to do this. Every single one of our CBs will have played the majority of their careers in a back four. They have built a career in that position. Ralph went with a back five to give added security at a time when games were coming thick and fast, with little time on the training ground to work on his ideas. We looked equally bad in a back five as a back four under Hughes, yet with game time and training time, Ralph quickly improved the team in a back five. There’s nothing to say that he can’t do the same with the same personnel in a back four, once the pressure to get results is slightly relieved.
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Post by Mandochris on Jan 21, 2019 13:34:55 GMT
I think you missed the point. Spectacularly Exactly what The Donald would reply! Not his language at all. He does often miss the point though
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Post by Mandochris on Jan 21, 2019 13:36:29 GMT
We should have appointed Marco Silva. JWP should have been moved on to a championship club last summer. What the feck is Bednarek doing at this club. Stephens might make it a league one club. Etc.
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Post by meatball on Jan 21, 2019 14:01:33 GMT
Exactly. Concerns about a back 5 resulting in more defensive pressure and less attacking thrust are somewhat negated by the fact that we are mostly defending pretty well, scoring enough goals to win games, and people are being entertained. What, therefore, is the incentive to move to a back 4? I don’t doubt that it will benefit us long term to have options- particularly if we can switch between the two seamlessly mid-game- but for now, the priority has to be to stick to a winning formula now that we’ve found one. I'm not sure we can continue to only have thirty-something % possession against mid-table or worse teams at home and continue to regularly win games. It might be a good strategy of trying to play the big boys on the break but not when we're playing the likes of Palace at home. 4 of our next 5 games are very winnable ones against non Big 6 opponents. I'm not sure why there is a reticence about us buying a new CB. It's almost as if some are looking to take us getting a massive upgrade of manager to justify the signings of the past 3 seasons as not being as bad as the stats suggest. The comments about us having the CBs to play 4 at the back don't seem to be borne out by results on the pitch. Whenever we have tried it is has been a disaster. We did it against a weakened Derby team at their place and conceded two and then tried it at home against them and also conceded two in one half. We need to be able to let RH play his favoured formation. This means we need 4 decent CBs so we can pick the best two. Bednarnek looks like he can develop into a good CB so you would have to say we have one starting CB there but I'm not sure you could play him with JV as the latter seems to need two CBs playing alongside him to make up with his lack of pace. Likewise I can't see any future for Stephens as a PL CB with a team playing 4 at the back as he has zero aerial ability. RH does seem very hot on him as an intelligent footballer so I wouldn't be at all surprised if RH was able to get him playing the role(s) Dier does at Spurs. CB when the team is playing 3 CBs but also as a MF player. If we look at where we need to strengthen, CBs would seem the obvious area, even if for no other reason that we are a man down there as RH has gone on record as saying our £15m man Wes Hoedt has no future at the club. In MF we have lost Davis but added Hesketh, in attack we have lost Gabbiadini but added both Obafemi and Gallagher so I can't see we will be bringing in more players in either of those areas. If we can sell Cedric then a new RB may be an option but, with Valery playing well, it's not exactly a desperate need. Unsurprisingly I disagree. Regarding the possession, I think you will find that this will creep up gradually as the players get more adept at Ralph's style. He often talked about transitional play and his desire for the players to win the ball back and create a chance within ten seconds. This is not the kind of football that will earn you great possession stats. If we ever see a game where we've had more than 50% of the ball, I reckon we'd be scoring 6 or 7 in the process. With the formation we use at the moment, i'd argue that we need a CB only as cover for what we have already. Buying cover in January is expensive so that may wait until the summer. To see out this year and ensure PL survival, I think RH will continue to persevere with 3 at the back. For this formation to really work, we need to focus on full backs. With RB back and Targett at cover, we need a starting RWB and Valery to cover. As I understand it, this is well underway with the chap from Genk and Cedders will be moved on. With some decent wing backs, we will be a huge threat going forward. I see no problem with playing a back 3 the RH plays it, and I do not see it as a lesser way of playing in terms of attacking football as long as you have the wing backs to play it. Our midfield 3 completely ran that game yesterday, and with Lemina to come back, any 3 of those four would be a force to be reckoned with. Has Ralph finally found a position for James Ward Prowse!?! He played like a man possessed on Saturday, outran everyone despite having just played 120 minutes against Derby. I admit that I was struggling to see where JWP was going to become the player we had all hoped he would be, but as with many of them, Ralph has given him a purpose. He has told him what he expects of him, and Prowsey has started to deliver. We all knew he had the desire and work ethic, he just needed the guidance.
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Post by Mandochris on Jan 21, 2019 14:40:18 GMT
We have Stephens (improving), Bednarek (starting to show his class), Vestegard (also improving and an important presence with his head). Yoshida to come back soon. It seems Ralph may be playing Ramsay in the centre (? someone mentioned this). Is Alfie Jones back? He was going to be next sliced bread. So, indeed, if Ralph is determined to play a back 4, and reckons he doesn't have two there who can do it, he may go into the market. But he has said he won't buy anyone it is exactly what we want. No more Carillos to show the manager the board believes in him.
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Post by saintsfan73 on Jan 21, 2019 14:51:54 GMT
I'm not sure we can continue to only have thirty-something % possession against mid-table or worse teams at home and continue to regularly win games. It might be a good strategy of trying to play the big boys on the break but not when we're playing the likes of Palace at home. 4 of our next 5 games are very winnable ones against non Big 6 opponents. I'm not sure why there is a reticence about us buying a new CB. It's almost as if some are looking to take us getting a massive upgrade of manager to justify the signings of the past 3 seasons as not being as bad as the stats suggest. The comments about us having the CBs to play 4 at the back don't seem to be borne out by results on the pitch. Whenever we have tried it is has been a disaster. We did it against a weakened Derby team at their place and conceded two and then tried it at home against them and also conceded two in one half. We need to be able to let RH play his favoured formation. This means we need 4 decent CBs so we can pick the best two. Bednarnek looks like he can develop into a good CB so you would have to say we have one starting CB there but I'm not sure you could play him with JV as the latter seems to need two CBs playing alongside him to make up with his lack of pace. Likewise I can't see any future for Stephens as a PL CB with a team playing 4 at the back as he has zero aerial ability. RH does seem very hot on him as an intelligent footballer so I wouldn't be at all surprised if RH was able to get him playing the role(s) Dier does at Spurs. CB when the team is playing 3 CBs but also as a MF player. If we look at where we need to strengthen, CBs would seem the obvious area, even if for no other reason that we are a man down there as RH has gone on record as saying our £15m man Wes Hoedt has no future at the club. In MF we have lost Davis but added Hesketh, in attack we have lost Gabbiadini but added both Obafemi and Gallagher so I can't see we will be bringing in more players in either of those areas. If we can sell Cedric then a new RB may be an option but, with Valery playing well, it's not exactly a desperate need. Unsurprisingly I disagree. Regarding the possession, I think you will find that this will creep up gradually as the players get more adept at Ralph's style. He often talked about transitional play and his desire for the players to win the ball back and create a chance within ten seconds. This is not the kind of football that will earn you great possession stats. If we ever see a game where we've had more than 50% of the ball, I reckon we'd be scoring 6 or 7 in the process. With the formation we use at the moment, i'd argue that we need a CB only as cover for what we have already. Buying cover in January is expensive so that may wait until the summer. To see out this year and ensure PL survival, I think RH will continue to persevere with 3 at the back. For this formation to really work, we need to focus on full backs. With RB back and Targett at cover, we need a starting RWB and Valery to cover. As I understand it, this is well underway with the chap from Genk and Cedders will be moved on. With some decent wing backs, we will be a huge threat going forward. I see no problem with playing a back 3 the RH plays it, and I do not see it as a lesser way of playing in terms of attacking football as long as you have the wing backs to play it. Our midfield 3 completely ran that game yesterday, and with Lemina to come back, any 3 of those four would be a force to be reckoned with. Has Ralph finally found a position for James Ward Prowse!?! He played like a man possessed on Saturday, outran everyone despite having just played 120 minutes against Derby. I admit that I was struggling to see where JWP was going to become the player we had all hoped he would be, but as with many of them, Ralph has given him a purpose. He has told him what he expects of him, and Prowsey has started to deliver. We all knew he had the desire and work ethic, he just needed the guidance. I'm not sure the RB is being thought of as a starter, he seems a fairly low cost player and Valery seems to be doing very well. If anything the new guy might be the backup. Also have a feeling that Lemina won't be coming back. I think he's going to be another victim of not the RH cull. No bad thing, we can get a good transfer fee for him and we also have Harry Reed returning from loan in the Summer. Playing 3 at the back, and thus 3 central MF players has been a godsend from JWP. As we saw when RK played that formation that is where JWP is suited. The problem is that JWP cannot be play in central 2 (or out wide in a 442) So ultimately he may suffer when RH moves to his preferred 4222 or 433.
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Post by Batts on Jan 21, 2019 15:12:30 GMT
Unsurprisingly I disagree. Regarding the possession, I think you will find that this will creep up gradually as the players get more adept at Ralph's style. He often talked about transitional play and his desire for the players to win the ball back and create a chance within ten seconds. This is not the kind of football that will earn you great possession stats. If we ever see a game where we've had more than 50% of the ball, I reckon we'd be scoring 6 or 7 in the process. With the formation we use at the moment, i'd argue that we need a CB only as cover for what we have already. Buying cover in January is expensive so that may wait until the summer. To see out this year and ensure PL survival, I think RH will continue to persevere with 3 at the back. For this formation to really work, we need to focus on full backs. With RB back and Targett at cover, we need a starting RWB and Valery to cover. As I understand it, this is well underway with the chap from Genk and Cedders will be moved on. With some decent wing backs, we will be a huge threat going forward. I see no problem with playing a back 3 the RH plays it, and I do not see it as a lesser way of playing in terms of attacking football as long as you have the wing backs to play it. Our midfield 3 completely ran that game yesterday, and with Lemina to come back, any 3 of those four would be a force to be reckoned with. Has Ralph finally found a position for James Ward Prowse!?! He played like a man possessed on Saturday, outran everyone despite having just played 120 minutes against Derby. I admit that I was struggling to see where JWP was going to become the player we had all hoped he would be, but as with many of them, Ralph has given him a purpose. He has told him what he expects of him, and Prowsey has started to deliver. We all knew he had the desire and work ethic, he just needed the guidance. I'm not sure the RB is being thought of as a starter, he seems a fairly low cost player and Valery seems to be doing very well. If anything the new guy might be the backup. Also have a feeling that Lemina won't be coming back. I think he's going to be another victim of not the RH cull. No bad thing, we can get a good transfer fee for him and we also have Harry Reed returning from loan in the Summer. Playing 3 at the back, and thus 3 central MF players has been a godsend from JWP. As we saw when RK played that formation that is where JWP is suited. The problem is that JWP cannot be play in central 2 (or out wide in a 442) So ultimately he may suffer when RH moves to his preferred 4222 or 433. Don’t you think JWP would fit nicely into the second midfield bank of 2 in the 4222? Those two players are going to have to cover a lot of ground linking defensive midfield with attack, playing through the centre but also covering out wide when required, driving forward, making forward passes, taking advantage of pockets of space to feed the strikers. Those 2 midfielders will likely be playmakers, not your tricky winger types. Sounds perfect for JWP and his new-found skills.
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Post by Mandochris on Jan 21, 2019 15:14:23 GMT
Ralph has said his preferred formation is 4222
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Post by saintsfan73 on Jan 21, 2019 15:27:12 GMT
I'm not sure the RB is being thought of as a starter, he seems a fairly low cost player and Valery seems to be doing very well. If anything the new guy might be the backup. Also have a feeling that Lemina won't be coming back. I think he's going to be another victim of not the RH cull. No bad thing, we can get a good transfer fee for him and we also have Harry Reed returning from loan in the Summer. Playing 3 at the back, and thus 3 central MF players has been a godsend from JWP. As we saw when RK played that formation that is where JWP is suited. The problem is that JWP cannot be play in central 2 (or out wide in a 442) So ultimately he may suffer when RH moves to his preferred 4222 or 433. Don’t you think JWP would fit nicely into the second midfield bank of 2 in the 4222? Those two players are going to have to cover a lot of ground linking defensive midfield with attack, playing through the centre but also covering out wide when required, driving forward, making forward passes, taking advantage of pockets of space to feed the strikers. Those 2 midfielders will likely be playmakers, not your tricky winger types. Sounds perfect for JWP and his new-found skills. Possibly. We would seem to be lacking in the first bank of 2 then as you would want PEH in the 2nd 2. Romeu would be part of the defensive 2, but with who else? Maybe a returning Harry Reed? JWP would seem to be in direct competition with Armstrong for 2nd place in the 2nd two alongside PEH. I think Armstrong is the better player, he's got 4 goals this season already but, as always, JWPs famed corners and freekicks are definitely the other thing to add to the equation. I've never really seen 4-4-2-2 played in the PL so not sure if it will work. I think we tried it against Derby but it just looked ridiculously narrow.
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Post by Batts on Jan 21, 2019 15:57:33 GMT
Don’t you think JWP would fit nicely into the second midfield bank of 2 in the 4222? Those two players are going to have to cover a lot of ground linking defensive midfield with attack, playing through the centre but also covering out wide when required, driving forward, making forward passes, taking advantage of pockets of space to feed the strikers. Those 2 midfielders will likely be playmakers, not your tricky winger types. Sounds perfect for JWP and his new-found skills. Possibly. We would seem to be lacking in the first bank of 2 then as you would want PEH in the 2nd 2. Romeu would be part of the defensive 2, but with who else? Maybe a returning Harry Reed? JWP would seem to be in direct competition with Armstrong for 2nd place in the 2nd two alongside PEH. I think Armstrong is the better player, he's got 4 goals this season already but, as always, JWPs famed corners and freekicks are definitely the other thing to add to the equation. I've never really seen 4-4-2-2 played in the PL so not sure if it will work. I think we tried it against Derby but it just looked ridiculously narrow. I’ve not seen it either but it is obvious that 2 very good full backs are required, as they would provide the width going forward. Targett had a terrible game at Derby, and the other was Cedric. I do fear it might be quite easy to counter for the opposition. Play 4231, thus matching up to us in midfield and also pinning the full backs back with attacking threat on the flanks. But as I said, all very theoretical as I haven’t seen it in action. I’m sure Ralph has thought about these things.
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