earlscourtsaint
International
The days of the Choccy Box may well be over
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Post by earlscourtsaint on Mar 20, 2024 10:44:29 GMT
A few of us have discussed this on various other threads, I thought it deserved its own, so here goes;
I finished it last night, and my overall is 9/10 - it is the modern day Band of Brothers (10/10) but with an Air Force slant, yes it's Hollywood, but that's sort of what you would expect from, umm Hollywood - WWII was the USofA vs the Germans, a few other smaller nations might have been involved along the way, but the US Air Force won the Air battle, as long as you watch it from that lens then it's actually really really good, and I'm saying that as one of our own boys in light blue.
The cinematography, special effects, production etc are all brilliant, the script was somewhat grating at times (see above) but in general terms the storyline was very good, perhaps not wholly accurate, but it's a dramatisation, not a documentary (I've just started the Bloody100 doc, also on Apple), so no criticism there. I had no issue with the drinking and 'frolicking' and loved the line about the British being 'undersexed, underpaid and under Eisenhower' - if you think every night may well be your last then you are going to make the most if it!
So, for anyone who hasn't yet watched it, very highly recommended!
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Post by spot51 on Mar 20, 2024 12:08:15 GMT
I'm still getting into it but have reached the disaster at Schweintfurt- Regensberg in 43. This caused the US 8th Airforce to rethink tactics.
Between the wars there was an accepted idea that "Bombers will always get through". It came from Italy but was accepted by Axis nations and in the USA. That is why they focused on Bomber-Gunships like the B17 Fortresses. They trained their crews to fly in formations that allowed gunners the maximum "arc of fire" when under attack by fighters.
The UK was more alert to the threat of war in Europe and realised our need was for fighters to intercept German bombers making the short hop across the channel. It was this that saw us develop the excellent Hurricane and Spitfire which won the Battle of Britain in the Autumn of 1940.
Our issue though was manufacturing capacity so we looked to the USA to help. From 1938 we had full-time offices in the USA responsible for commissioning, co-operating on and purchasing ordnance - specifically, fighter planes. Whilst there was tacit support for Britain, the US had neutrality laws that meant we had to buy everything we got. Later in the war, Lend Lease allowed them to effectively give us the stuff and after some was indeed returned to the US but we were also stuck with an enormous debt.
The initial problem was the US's complete reliance on bombers. In the 30s they only had the Tomahawk which was no match for modern Focke-Wulfs or Messerschmitts. Britain therefore shared our expertise in fighter design and allowed the legendary Merlin engine to be manufactured over there. The result of these actions was the fabulous P51 Mustang - the plane that won the war (in Western Europe at least).
The first aircraft arrived in Blighty shortly before Pearl Harbour which brought the US into WW2. The Mustang began RAF operations the following year and was an immediate success. With the US now on a war footing and costs irrelevant, further developments saw Mustangs fitted with additional fuel tanks so the Allies now had a fighter capable of staying with bombers OVER Germany and just not on the way or the way back.
The 8th Airforce's strategic daytime bombing had cost many aircraft and their crews so they were quick to deploy P51s to protect their bombers. When James Doolittle was made their Commander at the start of 1944 he made "total air superiority" their objective. The Mustangs were so good that they were sent in ahead of the bombers to take out German fighters before raids and this tactic virtually removed the Luftwaffe from the skies in time for the D Day landings that Summer. Germany was never going to win the war, but the Mustang was a factor that sped up their surrender.
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Post by Mandochris on Mar 20, 2024 13:38:36 GMT
And to think we were told it was the Spitfire that won the skies.
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Post by spot51 on Mar 20, 2024 20:31:46 GMT
And to think we were told it was the Spitfire that won the skies. It may have but it was our inability to build enough quickly enough that forced us to look to the New World for help. Churchill remained convinced the USA would become an ally but it was Pearl Harbour that moved the playing pieces. The day after the US declared war on Japan, Germany declared war on the US. The UK had fought Hitler alone for almost 30 months so the Spitfire, and the undervalued Hurricane, were responsible for seeing off the Luftwaffe and forcing Hitler's biggest mistake. He had probably always intended to rat-out on Stalin once Poland was subdued but the invasion of Russia signalled the death knell of the Third Reich. Germany spent the years between 33 and the invasion of Poland in 39 preparing for war in Europe. They had the luxury of testing their planes, crews and aerial tactics over Spain during their Civil War. At the outbreak of WW2 their forces were able to combine seamlessly on their Blitzkrieg to the Channel. The defeat of Britain looked assured till the RAF and their Allies had their say. In his fury at a first failure he immediately opened the second front and sent his forces across the East. Behind the front line, "Special Police" Units followed with instructions to find and execute "untermenschen". Their folly was preparing for a European war then moving onto an intercontinental campaign. They had an effective and well drilled air force with great planes but they lacked the range required to fight Russia. The Allies had the Liberator (about which I was waxing lyrical last week) capable flying from the UK to bomb oilfields on the Black Sea. They could not fly back but as Egypt never fell to our enemies they were able to refuel there and return. Germany's lack of long range bombers meant that, no matter what advances the Wehrmacht made on the ground, they could never bomb the factories where Russia's munitions and ordnance were being manufactured. When the front moved East - so did Russian manufacturing. So at Stalingrad, with supply lines exposed to partisan attacks and their Tiger tanks being routinely knocked out, they were halted. The Soviets were able to then bring in huge numbers of their T34 tanks from the East and surround the German forces. That was the beginning of the end.
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Post by Mandochris on Mar 21, 2024 11:03:54 GMT
Hey spot51 see my DM for more on the RAF during WWII
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Post by orde on Mar 24, 2024 0:57:00 GMT
I’m eager to watch this, curious to see which theaters it covers. My grandfather was a navigator at an airbase in China for missions flown over the hump from India, and my uncle flew fighters accompanying those missions, although they didn’t know one another. My grandmother a stack of love letters we found when she died, that came from a boy she was in high school with, follows all the way through training just prior to deployment. We looked him up and he was shot down over France on his second mission.
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Post by Mandochris on Mar 24, 2024 8:32:01 GMT
Wow. What an amazing and moving discovery those letter must have been. It covers the 8th airforce based on Norfolk flying sorties over Germany. When you finish you can watch the 100th documentary about them with interviews and stories of some of the real characters from the series.
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Post by spot51 on Mar 24, 2024 10:08:50 GMT
One thing that did surprise me was the idea that when, the P51s were deployed in '44, the bombers were the bait to get the Luftwaffe up to be shot down. With hindsight, that certainly happened but the idea that the 8th Airforce brass discussed it at the time? No doubt some thought it but would they ever say it out loud?
My understanding (I used to read lots about the war when commuting) was the Mustangs did take off after the bombers and arrive before - and they showed this happen in MOTA. They were little faster than our Spit but way heavier (all that extra fuel) so less maneuverable. Again, it was a numbers thing and so many P51s in skies over Germany gained the Air Superiority required before Overlord could proceed.
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