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Post by lostboy on Jun 5, 2013 8:46:14 GMT
Where's the money going?So perhaps you'd like to explain to me again, with your vast experience of youth player development and the workings of the FA, club Centres of Excellence/Academies, funding streams etc. why this situation has been allowed to develop by the very organisation that you championed as the future of our national game?
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Post by saintsfan73 on Jun 5, 2013 9:06:14 GMT
If there were decent English U21 players around then clubs would pick them. So obviously there aren't.....
As you stated last week the PL's job is running the company which is the Premier League.
So that would leave the development of young players in the remit of the FA.
So as I said they are unfit for purpose.
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Post by choixkoix on Jun 5, 2013 9:22:41 GMT
There's a few issues here. The Premier League is so awash with money (even before the new deal) that clubs in the bottom half think it more prudent to spend on quick fix foreign signings than on long-term player development. The punishment for relegation is so much that few teams can afford to regularly expose young players to the first team until they are super-ready or unless they are phenomenal talents.
English football has a lot of structural defects - for example, the disjunct between the Premier League and the Championship, the lack of B teams for top clubs playing in the lower leagues (note: Germany and Spain both have established B team systems), the U21 league having been meaninglessly uncompetitive historically.
One of the biggest, if not the biggest problem is the uneasy relationship between the FA and the Premier League. The latter effectively rules the English game at the detriment of the latter. In France, Germany and Spain there is much closer cooperation between the national youth system and the club youth system - they know that their success is tied together. The recent article with the guy involved in Dortmund's youth academy illustrated that very well.
And finally... yes, the FA are morons for not having noticed until now the importance of investing in good quality coaches at the grass-roots level of the game.
It would also help if these coaches redefined our expectations that players must be tall and/or quick and/or built like a brick shithouse. 5ft4inch players can be moulded into very good midfield players with the right coaching.
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Post by lostboy on Jun 5, 2013 9:42:25 GMT
If there were decent English U21 players around then clubs would pick them. So obviously there aren't..... Aren't there? I suggest you take a good look at the U21 national team record, an FA run team, and compare it with the other major footballing nations. Then perhaps you'll take those PL sponsored blinkers off and realise that the fault isn't where you suspect it is! As you stated last week the PL's job is running the company which is the Premier League. Yep, and they're doing such a good job of it that they've rewarded themselves by keeping more of the money rather than passing it on to the grass roots. So remind how you're suggestion that they should be in charge of player development and the national teams works? So that would leave the development of young players in the remit of the FA. Yes. And until you understand where the money comes from and admit that the FA are being fucked over by the PL we will continue having this discusssion. As was pointed on the other thread, and in many others which you have missed or chosen not to quote, I'm no apologist for the FA but they seem to be doing an ok job at player development to U21 level given the resources available, which bring us back to - where is the money coming from? How are the PL showing their commitment to player development?
So as I said they are unfit for purpose. The PL? Certainly looks like it. Especially when you look at the evidence. You really need to go and do some research  |
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Post by saintsfan73 on Jun 5, 2013 9:49:22 GMT
If there were decent English U21 players around then clubs would pick them. So obviously there aren't..... Aren't there? I suggest you take a good look at the U21 national team record, an FA run team, and compare it with the other major footballing nations. Then perhaps you'll take those PL sponsored blinkers off and realise that the fault isn't where you suspect it is! As you stated last week the PL's job is running the company which is the Premier League. Yep, and they're doing such a good job of it that they've rewarded themselves by keeping more of the money rather than passing it on to the grass roots. So remind how you're suggestion that they should be in charge of player development and the national teams works? So that would leave the development of young players in the remit of the FA. Yes. And until you understand where the money comes from and admit that the FA are being fecked over by the PL we will continue having this discusssion. As was pointed on the other thread, and in many others which you have missed or chosen not to quote, I'm no apologist for the FA but they seem to be doing an ok job at player development to U21 level given the resources available, which bring us back to - where is the money coming from? How are the PL showing their commitment to player development?
So as I said they are unfit for purpose. The PL? Certainly looks like it. Especially when you look at the evidence. You really need to go and do some research Are you really confusing the fact that our U21s have an ok record with those players being good enough to play in the PL? And can you explain how them not playing the in the PL is the PL's fault and not that of the clubs they play for. No, you're quite correct. The PL should be shovelling great swathes of cash through to the FA. They should give it all to Sir Trev. You know the same Sir Trev who said last week that it would take us twenty years to get where the Germans got in 10 years (forgetting that he himself has been in situ for a decade...) You have a great ability to refuse to think any other point of view other than your own could possibly be correct. You should post on TUI more. |
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Post by lostboy on Jun 5, 2013 10:06:17 GMT
There's no confusion. You said the PL would do a better job of running the national teams than the FA. Up to the full side we're actually pretty good and that's down to the FA. Choixkoix covered the issue with the clubs and PL perfectly. When you then consider that the rest of the European U21 national sides aren't as good as ours but can still find representation in their own leagues AND perform better at full international level what does that say about the PL and PL clubs and their selection policies? This is brought even more into focus when you then look at the number of foreign internationals from top European sides that play in the PL and realise that it's not a lot of them! They're playing the Spanish, German, Italian and French leagues, alongside the U21s!!
Oh dear, you wouldn't have brought Sir Trev up if you'd read the other threads. I suggest you do the search that I told you to do last time. How very embarrassing for you that you're reduced to quoting something back to me that's been covered in significantly more detail and with a much greater degree of accuracy than a throwaway, get out of jail paragraph.
No, I have a great ability to argue cogently about subjects that I am well educated in, as opposed to throwing out media soundbites like you did regarding this. Your views are ill conceived and show no understanding of how to improve the ability of young footballers in this country. This improvement would benefit of the national team, which is where this started. Your ideas are positively dangerous when it comes to continuing the already far too slow evolution in football thinking in this country and, once again, there's plenty of evidence that shows this to be the case - see the original link.
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Post by Furry Frank The Combat Wombat on Jun 5, 2013 10:08:29 GMT
Someone give LB a bong FFS!
It's not that you're wrong, btw; just that I can't see that it's a particularly soluble problem. The PL have the money and therefore the power and from their point of view it's working fine.. big foreign stars put bums on armchairs, blooding English yoof doesn't.
Until someone gets to a position where they can take the PL on, I can't see it changing (unless/until the big money goes out of the game).. the FA are too weak and there's no political will for change as the politicians like the money the PL generates.
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Post by saintsfan73 on Jun 5, 2013 10:21:21 GMT
There's no confusion. You said the PL would do a better job of running the national teams than the FA. Up to the full side we're actually pretty good and that's down to the FA. Choixkoix covered the issue with the clubs and PL perfectly. When you then consider that the rest of the European U21 national sides aren't as good as ours but can still find representation in their own leagues AND perform better at full international level what does that say about the PL and PL clubs and their selection policies? This is brought even more into focus when you then look at the number of foreign internationals from top European sides that play in the PL and realise that it's not a lot of them! They're playing the Spanish, German, Italian and French leagues, alongside the U21s!! Oh dear, you wouldn't have brought Sir Trev up if you'd read the other threads. I suggest you do the search that I told you to do last time. How very embarrassing for you that you're reduced to quoting something back to me that's been covered in significantly more detail and with a much greater degree of accuracy than a throwaway, get out of jail paragraph. No, I have a great ability to argue cogently about subjects that I am well educated in, as opposed to throwing out media soundbites like you did regarding this. Your views are ill conceived and show no understanding of how to improve the ability of young footballers in this country. This improvement would benefit of the national team, which is where this started. Your ideas are positively dangerous when it comes to continuing the already far too slow evolution in football thinking in this country and, once again, there's plenty of evidence that shows this to be the case - see the original link. You're quite correct, this is all "very embarassing" to me. I don't think I'll ever be able to show my face again!  While saying what a great success the FA makes of teams other than the full squad, maybe the aim of these should be bringing on players you go on to play in the PL rather than having U19/U21 teams do well on the pitch but then have players who disappear from view. I also like how you have now quietly added "and PL teams" into the reasoning why there aren't more English U21 players in the PL.... Would it be possible for you to use your large amount of footballing education to explain the 'selection policies' of PL clubs? From my (highly emabarrased) viewpoint it would seem that if a player is good enough he will get picked, no matter his age, race, religion or shoe size. From our own club's point of view we played Shaw when he was up to playing in the PL. Surely, if anything, there is a bias towards English players as I'm sure Man U, Liverpool, etc would rather be playing english U 21 players if they were of a good enough standard. |
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Post by bombay on Jun 5, 2013 11:42:01 GMT
Who cares about England and international football anyway ffs? They play in the summer (cricket season not football), and England "fans" are idiots that don't even go to games. The replica shirt pub attending tramps. And that sky sports england reporter with the tache is a bellend. It's a load of shit
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Post by yateleysaint on Jun 5, 2013 11:50:00 GMT
The big clubs don't have many England under 21s partly because they get fast tracked to the full team.
If you play for Saints you might get one or two call ups but you won't get a place until you move to a big club.
England could build a team around the likes of Clyne, Shaw, Cork and Lallana but it's about your club, not about how good you are as a player.
If by some incredible fluke England made it to the WC final next year and it went to a shoot out I'd put my house on SRL scoring. However, he'd be at home watching it on TV like me and Danny bloody Welbeck would end up skying it.
The whole system is skewed in favour of the big clubs. That goes for Spain, France and Germany too but they still manage to play their best young players.
Arsenal signed Walcott and Oxo and stifled their development by not letting them play often enough. Spurs did the same with Bale. I just hope Saints can hang on to their best young players now and create a team that's good enough to shake things up a bit.
The monied clubs are fixated on short term success but maybe that's changing now that the likes of Man City are spending a fortune on their academy. When's FFP coming into force? Will that help matters?
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Post by yateleysaint on Jun 5, 2013 16:51:00 GMT
Yeah, that's you lot told!
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Post by saintsfan73 on Jun 10, 2013 8:33:15 GMT
When you then consider that the rest of the European U21 national sides aren't as good as ours Yeah, you might want to re-consider that opinion...... |
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Post by saintpaddy on Jun 10, 2013 8:37:45 GMT
When you then consider that the rest of the European U21 national sides aren't as good as ours Yeah, you might want to re-consider that opinion...... There are times we all put our foot in it. But with some of the best players away with the senior squad you can have some sympathy. Furthermore you have to use the players correctly and no one can say Pierce did. England do have good u21 but again if you play them like morons what do you get??? Germany also gone??? |
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Post by lostboy on Jun 10, 2013 9:00:01 GMT
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Post by saintsfan73 on Jun 10, 2013 9:15:39 GMT
Yep, they let me down a treat. So did Stuart Pearce. So did the Germans! The end of the world is nigh. Did you really expect anymore from Pearce? He would seem to be the embodiment of everything about English football you seem to hate. |
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