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Post by lostboy on Feb 17, 2012 9:33:16 GMT
So why bother with the coaching staff and tactics/formations? Just send them out 4-4-2 and let them play and if it works then great and if it doesn't, hey, it clearly wasn't our day.
Fortunately that's not the way it works or the way NA thinks as he turned around a piss-poor formation against Cardiff and with the same players extracted a significantly better performance which allowed us to get a draw. So again, either the players had a miraculous transformation from "underachievers" to "overachievers" in the space of time that it took to get the ball from the back of Kelv's net to the centre spot OR the fact that we'd changed to 4-3-3 allowed us to take control of midfield and from there create the chances we needed to gain points. Which do you reckon it was?
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Post by Furry Frank The Combat Wombat on Feb 17, 2012 9:45:16 GMT
is it time for a "Calm down, dear" on this fred yet?
Can't we just agree that it's probably a bit of both? Yes, the formation can have an effect on the control of the game, and yes; if the players are playing like poop it doesn't matter so much what formation we're in (but obviously changing the formation may (or may not) assist them in overcoming their bad day).
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Post by Sir B3na1i on Feb 17, 2012 9:49:04 GMT
So why bother with the coaching staff and tactics/formations? Just send them out 4-4-2 and let them play and if it works then great and if it doesn't, hey, it clearly wasn't our day. Fortunately that's not the way it works or the way NA thinks as he turned around a piss-poor formation against Cardiff and with the same players extracted a significantly better performance which allowed us to get a draw. So again, either the players had a miraculous transformation from "underachievers" to "overachievers" in the space of time that it took to get the ball from the back of Kelv's net to the centre spot OR the fact that we'd changed to 4-3-3 allowed us to take control of midfield and from there create the chances we needed to gain points. Which do you reckon it was? Well the coaching and tactics are obviously required, but you seemed transfixed with formations or should I say one particular formation... If it was simple as formations every team would set up the same and all games would be draws... Apart from those played between teams far apart in class. It's the ability to change things that's important and NA has done that when needed... The important thing is fluidity in the squad IMO, because let's be honest we've won plenty of games playing 4-4-2 this season, but equally we've changed things and won too...
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Post by Sir B3na1i on Feb 17, 2012 9:50:27 GMT
is it time for a "Calm down, dear" on this fred yet? Nah, we're all being friendly, no one is name calling etc... it's a bit of good natured debate
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Post by lostboy on Feb 17, 2012 9:55:08 GMT
Not at all, in fact quite the opposite as the opening to this thread proved. There is a place for anything as long as you understand what you are likely to be faced with and what that means. A great example is the Burnley game as they were the first team to come down here and line up 4-4-2 which meant that we could, especially knowing we were better than them all over the pitch and sure enough we won comfortably. It isn't at all simple which is why some of us like to try and let people know what's going on.
It's more important to get it right in the first place. And we've found that because we've been more successful than anyone imagined the opposition teams are now starting to set their stall out to draw against us. That's why most now turn up to "fortress" St Mary's and play 4-5-1. It's up to us to break them down and to do that we need to understand what works and why.
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Post by THE BEAST on Feb 17, 2012 12:19:22 GMT
I'm sorry, did we go American all of a sudden? I just experienced a shuddering flashforward moment of baseball fans appearing all over the country and taking over sports broadcasting OK, so you have announced that he isn't good enough and poured scorn on my evidence to the contrary. Do you actually have anything to back up your claim that he's no good? When I had a pop at Hammond yesterday you got very indignant, but when I explained why, you ended up agreeing with a fair bit of it. So- why is Richardson not "good enough"? There are lots of posts in this thread which are obviously designed to wind up those of us who have certain beliefs about certain tactics and their influence on games. That's fine- I enjoy the banter and enjoy fighting my corner. If you're going to pertain to some higher understanding though, at least back it up with some good, old-fashioned FACTS. FYI, Fox has 8 assists. I guess it depends on whether you are comparing him with other clubs in this division or with the best fullbacks in the world… I'm guessing it's not the latter for you otherwise we really do see the game more differently than I had thought, personally, I view everyone against what I see as the best players for their position. so if you want my list of better fullbacks than Frazer Richardson here goes (in no particular order, as they come to me): Leighton Baines Glen Johnson Jesus Navas Micah Richards (not sure about this one but he is getting to be one of my favourite players to watch in this position) Gianluca Zambrotta (still not bad but in his heyday magnificent) Philipp Lahm Kyle Naughton Stephen Carr none of that is particularly useful in this discussion because none of those are within our reach, as for facts, we were talking about who we liked and whether we thought they were good enough… I don't give a feck about what the paper says… The paper also says that Carlos Tevez is a wonderful player but I wouldn't like him in our team even if it meant certain promotion. I'm not sure it's worth continuing this discussion as there is no way you are going to be persuaded of my position and even if I agree with some of your points, I obviously don't share my own point of view we view on other aspects of this, anyway it's really just a load of championship manager bollocks as none of us are in a position to prove we are right or not.
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Post by shirleymush on Feb 17, 2012 12:28:31 GMT
Man Utd lose games occasionally against teams lesser than them (we used to beat them fairly regularly), you're not telling me that Fergie, found a winning formula but decided to tinker with it occasionally just for an experiment Actually, that's exactly what happened when we played them in the cup last season. At the start of the game, United had better players than us, but we went in ahead at half time. During the break, Ferguson changed the tactics and they murdered us. Part of the reason we are where we are is that a lot of teams expected us to play 4-4-2 then spent the first 20 mins of games trying to work out what the hell we were doing and how it allowed us to dominate possession. Oh, and please, please don't say "hence why"...
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Post by shirleymush on Feb 17, 2012 12:35:24 GMT
OK, so you have announced that he isn't good enough and poured scorn on my evidence to the contrary. Do you actually have anything to back up your claim that he's no good? When I had a pop at Hammond yesterday you got very indignant, but when I explained why, you ended up agreeing with a fair bit of it. So- why is Richardson not "good enough"? There are lots of posts in this thread which are obviously designed to wind up those of us who have certain beliefs about certain tactics and their influence on games. That's fine- I enjoy the banter and enjoy fighting my corner. If you're going to pertain to some higher understanding though, at least back it up with some good, old-fashioned FACTS. FYI, Fox has 8 assists. I guess it depends on whether you are comparing him with other clubs in this division or with the best fullbacks in the world… I'm guessing it's not the latter for you otherwise we really do see the game more differently than I had thought, personally, I view everyone against what I see as the best players for their position. so if you want my list of better fullbacks than Frazer Richardson here goes (in no particular order, as they come to me): Leighton Baines Glen Johnson Jesus Navas Micah Richards (not sure about this one but he is getting to be one of my favourite players to watch in this position) Gianluca Zambrotta (still not bad but in his heyday magnificent) Philipp Lahm Kyle Naughton Stephen Carr none of that is particularly useful in this discussion because none of those are within our reach, as for facts, we were talking about who we liked and whether we thought they were good enough… I don't give a feck about what the paper says… The paper also says that Carlos Tevez is a wonderful player but I wouldn't like him in our team even if it meant certain promotion. I'm not sure it's worth continuing this discussion as there is no way you are going to be persuaded of my position and even if I agree with some of your points, I obviously don't share my own point of view we view on other aspects of this, anyway it's really just a load of championship manager bollocks as none of us are in a position to prove we are right or not. Right, so it's a semantic debate now. No, Richardson is not Michah Richards. He is clearly more than adequate for what we are trying to achieve though.
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Post by THE BEAST on Feb 17, 2012 12:38:11 GMT
] Right, so it's a semantic debate now. No, Richardson is not Michah Richards. He is clearly more than adequate for what we are trying to achieve though. when has this stuff ever been more than subjective? if it was computers would run the teams, although I'm sure that's coming, it's not here yet
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Post by lostboy on Feb 17, 2012 12:42:32 GMT
] Right, so it's a semantic debate now. No, Richardson is not Michah Richards. He is clearly more than adequate for what we are trying to achieve though. when has this stuff ever been more than subjective? if it was computers would run the teams, although I'm sure that's coming, it's not here yet They may not run the teams but they have a hell of an influence already. Fat Sam, among many, many others are completely devoted to Prozone/Opta and all the other reporting software and what it tells them. NA is very keen on it as well. Even the self-appointed "best man manager in the world" uses GPS tracking in training and has a staff to monitor OPTA stats. So there are a large number of decisions in football already made by computer.
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Post by shirleymush on Feb 17, 2012 12:44:01 GMT
If it was just a case of having the best players, why does Mourinho change things around? Why does Guardiola? It's an insane thing to say.
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Post by THE BEAST on Feb 17, 2012 12:47:44 GMT
when has this stuff ever been more than subjective? if it was computers would run the teams, although I'm sure that's coming, it's not here yet They may not run the teams but they have a hell of an influence already. Fat Sam, among many, many others are completely devoted to Prozone/Opta and all the other reporting software and what it tells them. NA is very keen on it as well. Even the self-appointed "best man manager in the world" uses GPS tracking in training and has a staff to monitor OPTA stats. So there are a large number of decisions in football already made by computer. I know, I find this side of the game very interesting actually, I wonder whether you really could do a "moneyball" thing with "soccer"? It would be fascinating to find out, you would need a hell of a set of testicles (metaphorical, no reason it couldn't be ovaries?) to try it out though in the modern game. would they be able to get hold of this kind of data before they made a purchase of a new player do you think? BTW, I didn't watch the Manchester United game, I try not to watch them if there is an alternative! were they good?
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Post by THE BEAST on Feb 17, 2012 12:48:48 GMT
If it was just a case of having the best players, why does Mourinho change things around? Why does Guardiola? It's an insane thing to say. I suspect mostly because people get tired and injured? Why else?
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Post by shirleymush on Feb 17, 2012 13:01:30 GMT
If it was just a case of having the best players, why does Mourinho change things around? Why does Guardiola? It's an insane thing to say. I suspect mostly because people get tired and injured? Why else? Because opposition coaches and players are constantly trying different things in order to stop them. OK, example: The Classico in Madrid, the league one that Barca won 3-1. Real were all over Busquets, which pretty much meant that Real were all over Barca. So Guardiola pushed Alves into midfield, Pique to right back and slotted Busquets in alongside Puyol at the back where he operated as an old-style libero. Suddenly Barca started playing, because Busquets had been withdrawn to an area where even Real weren't prepared to press him. Football is a simple game- it's about controlling space; creating and exploiting it when you have the ball, negating it when you don't. Doing the same thing week in, week out is only going to work if the opposition do likewise. Yes, it is also about having good players, but it is also about being able to facilitate a synergy between those good players. Now here's Tom with the weather...
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Post by THE BEAST on Feb 17, 2012 13:06:24 GMT
I suspect mostly because people get tired and injured? Why else? Because opposition coaches and players are constantly trying different things in order to stop them. OK, example: The Classico in Madrid, the league one that Barca won 3-1. Real were all over Busquets, which pretty much meant that Real were all over Barca. So Guardiola pushed Alves into midfield, Pique to right back and slotted Busquets in alongside Puyol at the back where he operated as an old-style libero. Suddenly Barca started playing, because Busquets had been withdrawn to an area where even Real weren't prepared to press him. Football is a simple game- it's about controlling space; creating and exploiting it when you have the ball, negating it when you don't. Doing the same thing week in, week out is only going to work if the opposition do likewise. Yes, it is also about having good players, but it is also about being able to facilitate a synergy between those good players. Now here's Tom with the weather... Interesting, I don't get to watch much Spanish football so now I feel like I was there… Cheers ;D but apart from moving people did he use different players or the same ones in different places, I'm a little unclear on that from your reporting?
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