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Post by lostboy on Feb 16, 2012 8:33:53 GMT
What's better than 3 players in middle of the park? 4 players in the middle of the park!
That's a lesson in how to play the "diamond". No width whatsoever from the midfield, just take control of the area and use the full backs pushing on to keep the opposition's FBs honest. Opposition either need to be really brave and push their front three on to keep the whole of the back four in line or thy've got to drop inside to pick up the additional midfielder and try and regain control of CM. So it can work, but not the way we try and play it!
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Post by shirleymush on Feb 16, 2012 13:18:16 GMT
Well Chelsea won the league playing a diamond not so long ago so it must have something going for it. My problem with our use of it is that, like many sides who have played it, we look unable to cope defensively when play is shifted from the centre to the flanks. As you imply, if the opposition's wide players play high, they can block the other team's full backs and allow their own full backs to make an extra man.
What do you think we do wrong when we play it? Full backs not sufficiently advanced or carrilleros not sufficiently narrow? I wonder if it may be a combination of both- our midfielders seem to be under the impression that they still have some responsibility to provide width, which ends up with them not being central enough to outnumber the opposition midfielders and also getting in the way of the full backs trying to advance.
Of course Milan were helped by Wenger's decision to seemingly play without any tactics at all at the outset, followed by his decision to implement tactics that were completely insane at the break. Walcott off- so much for keeping the opposition full backs honest. It also helped that Milan had a supremely athletic player like Boateng caning it up and down in the manner of an old-fashioned Italian regista.
Arsenal are currently remeniscent of Forest during Brian Clough's final days there.
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Post by lostboy on Feb 16, 2012 14:21:17 GMT
Well Chelsea won the league playing a diamond not so long ago so it must have something going for it. My problem with our use of it is that, like many sides who have played it, we look unable to cope defensively when play is shifted from the centre to the flanks. As you imply, if the opposition's wide players play high, they can block the other team's full backs and allow their own full backs to make an extra man. What do you think we do wrong when we play it? Full backs not sufficiently advanced or carrilleros not sufficiently narrow? I wonder if it may be a combination of both- our midfielders seem to be under the impression that they still have some responsibility to provide width, which ends up with them not being central enough to outnumber the opposition midfielders and also getting in the way of the full backs trying to advance.Of course Milan were helped by Wenger's decision to seemingly play without any tactics at all at the outset, followed by his decision to implement tactics that were completely insane at the break. Walcott off- so much for keeping the opposition full backs honest. It also helped that Milan had a supremely athletic player like Boateng caning it up and down in the manner of an old-fashioned Italian regista. Arsenal are currently remeniscent of Forest during Brian Clough's final days there. That. If the diamond is made big enough that the one at the back is barely forward of the CBs, the top man is just behind the strikers and the "wide" players are getting chalk on their boot, who exactly is holding the midfield for you? Milan play with four central midfielders. There's no premise that any are wide players. The only one of the four that has a defined role is Van Bommel who is the "holding" base of the diamond player. Everyone else is in the middle and free to do pretty much what they like. With strikers who roam across the back four like Ronaldinho and Ibrahimovic the defence is occupied pretty much full time, players like Boateng can get forward to take the space left at will and the opposition have to sacrifice at least one attacking option to drop into the middle to try and counter the possession that these four can generate.
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Post by Mandochris on Feb 16, 2012 14:30:44 GMT
OK. So how many players in a diamond? This is a genuine question. Is it the midfield 4 who play a diamond and the front two run around atop of it or is it all the front 6. And while I'm here, what happened to the Christmas tree? Again, a genuine question.
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Post by The Rover on Feb 16, 2012 14:40:13 GMT
*awaits reply to Chris' post with interest*
We played 5-3-2 with a leather ball at school. I'm lost with all this new stuff.
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Post by lostboy on Feb 16, 2012 14:40:50 GMT
It's the midfield four.
Who cares, it was a shit idea!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2012 15:10:44 GMT
Whatever happened to 442?
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Post by Furry Frank The Combat Wombat on Feb 16, 2012 15:12:42 GMT
Whatever happened to 442? apparently we're not allowed that.
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Post by shirleymush on Feb 16, 2012 15:18:01 GMT
Whatever happened to 442? See the first 18 minutes of Tuesday night's game.
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Post by lostboy on Feb 16, 2012 15:44:56 GMT
Whatever happened to 442? See the first 18 minutes of Tuesday night's game. And Cardiff. etc.etc.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2012 15:57:17 GMT
Maybe 442 played badly is the problem.
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Post by lostboy on Feb 16, 2012 15:59:42 GMT
Maybe 442 played badly is the problem. If I may refer the honourable gentlemen to the original post.
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Post by spot51 on Feb 16, 2012 16:36:22 GMT
Have to say I was impressed by Van Bommel.
His recent international performances suggested he was just there to run about and kick opposing players at every opportunity. Sat infront of the centre-backs last night he looked a picture of serenity. Moreover, some of the 40 or 50 yard passes he was pinging down the park "au quarterback" were quite splendid.
Surely Spider could play that role.
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Post by shirleymush on Feb 16, 2012 16:42:41 GMT
Have to say I was impressed by Van Bommel. His recent international performances suggested he was just there to run about and kick opposing players at every opportunity. Sat infront of the centre-backs last night he looked a picture of serenity. Moreover, some of the 40 or 50 yard passes he was pinging down the park "au quarterback" were quite splendid. Surely Spider could play that role. He does! Van Bommel has always been quality. I still have fond memories of him and Kezman destroying United about ten years ago.
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Post by shirleymush on Feb 16, 2012 16:52:38 GMT
Maybe 442 played badly is the problem. If I may refer the honourable gentlemen to the original post. Indeed. You can think we're being dogmatic or just talking bollocks, but I've not read a shred of evidence or a remotely convincing argument to counter the theory that 4-4-2 doesn't work against 4-5-1 or 4-3-3. The proof is all there on the Saints Player if anyone would care to revisit the recent games against West Ham and Cardiff.
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